I think high ethical standards for RCTs in developing countries are important for:
I hold this view as someone enthusiastic about the potential benefits of RCTs, having recently contributed to one in Bihar (India)
I found the ideas in the post/comments clarifying and appreciate the considered, collaborative and humble spirit with which the post and most, if not all, comments were written. In alignment with the post's ideas, I hope this doesn't come across as over-attribution of impacts to individuals! I just appreciate the words people added here, the environment supporting them, and the people that caringly facilitated both
This might be a bit cute but I reckon the 1970 song 'Strangers' by 'The Kinks' illustrates some of the points in the post/comments quite nicely (explained by the songwriter here)
I'm skeptical that Shapley values can practically help us much in addressing the 'conceptual problem' raised by the post. See critique of estimated Shapley values in another comment on this post
Thanks for the considered and considerate discussion
Wouldn't estimating Shapley values still miss a core insight of the post - that 'do-gooding' efforts are ultimately co-dependent, not simply additive?
EXAMPLE: We can estimate the Shapley values for the relative contributions of different pieces of wood, matches, and newspaper to a fire. These estimated Shapley values might indicate that biggest piece of wood contributed the most fire, but miss three critical details:
We also make the high-risk assumption that the fire would be used and experienced beneficially
INTERPRETED IMPLICATION: estimated Shapley values still miss, at least in part, that outcomes from our efforts are co-dependent. We therefore still mislead ourselves by attempting to frame EA as an independent exercise?
(I'm not confident on this and would be keen to take on critiques)
Perhaps we could promote the questions:
and not the question:
Similar reframes might acknowledge that some efforts help facilitate large benefits, while also acknowledging all do-gooding efforts are ultimately co-dependent, not simply additive*? I like the aims of both of you, including here and here, to capture both insights.
(*I'm sceptical of the simplification that "some people are doing far more than others". Building on Owen's example, any impact of 'heavy lifting' theoretical physicists seems unavoidably co-dependent on people birthing and raising them, food and medical systems keeping them alive, research systems making their research doable/credible/usable, people not misusing their research to make atomic weapons, etc. This echos the points made in the 'conceptual problem' part of the post)
Five reasons why I think it's unhelpful connecting our intrinsic worth to our instrumental worth (or anything aside from being conscious beings):
Despite thinking these things, I often unintentionally get caught up muddling my self-worth with my instrumental worth (can relate to the post and comments on here!) I've found 'mindful self-compassion' super helpful for doing less of this
Three well-intentioned critiques of improving agricultural productivity in Sub-Saharan Africa as a poverty intervention:
Perhaps a more effective cause framing would be around creating off-farm income/resilience opportunities for farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa? This might improve incomes while indirectly improving agricultural productivity (as farms naturally become bigger and more productive with marginal farmers proactively move away from farming)
I was still excited to see this podcast episode as carefully-targeted agricultural interventions can be really beneficial across many areas (food security, poverty, emissions reductions etc) and seem neglected by EA community (from my perspective). I'd be very happy to informally support anyone working on this (I'm a PhD student specializing in scalable farmer communication and Nitrogen productivity of rice farms in South Asia)
Cheers Helene!
Fertilizer subsidy cost-effectiveness: I agree - fertilizer subsidies could be cost-effective in principle. I guess I see reducing subsidy costs as more of a potential co-benefit of increasing returns from fertilizer. Specifically, growing more food with less fertilizer could alleviate the need for food and fertilizer subsidies (improving the cost-effectiveness and political feasibility of redirecting resources to other government services)
Why subsidies politicized: I guess a large part is the proportion of voters employed in agriculture (in South Asian democracies compared to western democracies). Also, South Asian governments commonly resist foreigners influencing government policies (partially because of colonization). This paper provides a neat introduction to fertilizer subsidies and their politicization in South Asia
Ah fair call I can see how my comment was nitpicky
I am still concerned about the promotion of the (well-intentioned) RCT post that seemed to undervalue integrity processes for doing RCTs on vulnerable people (in my view). But I appreciate I could have misinterpreted this.
In any case, I can also see that my comment could be experienced as stressful or judgey by the Forum team AND author of the RCT post. I'm genuinely really sorry if this has happened. I appreciate you've taken on difficult and important tasks and trust you have the best of intentions with them :) Thanks for your efforts and I'll keenly be more tactful in future.