It seems to me that the limiting step here is the ability to act like an agent. If we already have AI that can reason and answer questions at a PhD level, why would we need reasoning and question answering to be any better?

The point is, there are 8.7 million species alive today, therefore there is a possibility that a significant number of these play important, high impact, roles.

I have the opposite intuition for biodiversity. People have been studying ecosystem services for decades and higher biodiversity is associated with increased ecosystem services, such as clean water, air purification, and waste management. Higher biodiversity is also associated with reduce transmission of infectious diseases by creating more complex ecosystems limiting pathogen spread. Then we have the actual and possible discovery of medicinal compounds and links with biodiversity and mental health. These are high level examples of the benefits. The linked article gives the possibility of impact by considering two effects from bats and vultures. Multiply that effect by 1000+ other species, include all the other impacts previously mentioned and I can see how this could be high impact. 

There are a variety of views on the potential moral status of AI/robots/machines into the future.

With a quick search it seems there are arguments for moral agency if functionality is equivalent to humans, or when/if they become capable of moral reasoning and decision-making. Others argue that consciousness is essential for moral agency and that the current AI paradigm is insufficient to generate consciousness. 

I was also interested to follow this up. For the source of this claim he cites another article he has written 'Is it time for robot rights? Moral status in artificial entities' (https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10676-021-09596-w.pdf).

This is fantastic! 

Do you know if anything like this exists for other cause areas, or the EA world more broadly? 

I have been compiling and exploring resources available for people interested in EA and different cause areas. There is a lot of organisations and opportunities to to get career advice, or undertake courses, or get involved in projects, but it is all scattered and there is no central repository or guide for navigating the EA world that I know of.

We are talking about making decisions whose outcome is one of the best things we can do for the far future.

An option can be the best thing you can do because it averts a terrible outcome, as opposed to achieving the best possible outcome.

This is probably a semantic disagreement but averting a terrible outcome could be viewed as one of the best things we can do for the far future. The part I was disagreeing with was when you said "I'm just saying one attractor state is better than the other in expectation, not that one of them is so great.". This gives the impression that longtermism is satisfied with prioritising one option in comparison to another, regardless of the context of other options which if considered would produce outcomes that are "near-best overall". And as such it's a somewhat strange claim that one of the best things you could do for the far future is in actuality "not so great". 

I don't understand some of what you're saying including on ambiguity.

My point could be ultimately be summarised by saying, how do you know that freedom (or any other value), will even makes sense in the far future, let alone valued? You don't. You're just assuming it makes sense and will be valued, because it makes sense and is valued now. While that may be sufficient for an argument in reference to the near future, I think it's a very weak argument to defend its relevance for the far future. 

At it's heart, the "inability to predict" arguments really hold strongly onto the sense that the far future is likely to be radically different and therefore you are making a claim to having knowledge of what is 'good' in this radically different future. 

Could I be wrong, sure, but we are doing things based on expectation.

I feel like "expectation" is doing far too much work in these arguments. It's not convincing to just claim something is likely or expected, that just begs the question, why is it likely or expected. 

Nevertheless I think the focus on non-existential risk examples like the US having dominance over China is a red herring for defending longtermism. I think the strongest claims are those for taking action on preventing existential risk. But there the action's are still subject to the same criticisms regarding the inability to predict how they will actually positively influence the far future. 

For example, take reducing exitential risk by developing some sort of asteroid defense system. While in the short term developing an asteroid defense system might seem to adequately contribute to the goal of reducing existential risk. It’s unclear how asteroid defense systems or other mitigation policies might interact with other technologies or societal developments in the far future. For example, advanced asteroid deflection technologies could have dual-use potentials (like space weaponization) that could create new risks or unforeseen consequences. Thus, while reducing risk associated with asteroid impacts has immediate positive effects, the net effect on the far future is more ambiguous.

There is also an accounting issue that distorts the estimates of the impact of particular actions on the far future. Calculating the expected value of minimising the existential risk associated with an asteroid impact for example, doesn't take into account changes in expected value over time. For a simple example, as soon as humans start living comfortably, in addition to but beyond Earth (for example on Mars), the existential risk from an asteroid impact declines dramatically, and further declines are made as we extend out further through the solar system and beyond. Yet the expected value is calculated on the time horizon whereby the value of this action, reducing risk from asteroid impact, will endure for the rest of time, when in reality, the value of this action, as originally calculated, will only endure for probably less than 50 years.

How did the book club on Deep Utopia go? Is there an online discussion of the book somewhere?

I'd be happy to have a call sometime if you want as that might be more efficient than this back and forth.

For now i'm finding the gaps in between useful for reflecting, thanks though. Perhaps in the future!

Not necessarily. To use the superintelligence example, the world will look radically different under either the US or China having superintelligence than it does now.

The world will be radically different, yet you feel confident in predicting that some element of this radically different world will remain constant for a very long time and this being so, moving towards this state is one of the best options for the far future. 

I'm just saying one attractor state is better than the other in expectation, not that one of them is so great.

I think you may be departing from strong longtermism. The first proposition for ASL is "Every option that is near-best overall is near-best for the far future." We are talking about making decisions whose outcome is one of the best things we can do for the far future. It's not merely something that is better than something deemed terrible. 

Yeah I guess in this case I'm talking about the US having dominance over the world as opposed to China having dominance over the world.

Perhaps I didn't explain the point about ambiguity well enough. Of all possible states, S, there is some possible state X, that is 'near-best', 'best-possible', 'close to best', what have you, for the far future. Call the 'near-best' state for the far future n-bX. There are microstates of n-bX that make it such that it is this 'near-best' state. Presumably you need to have some idea of what these microstates are, in order to make predictions regarding what we can do today that will lead towards them. 

Therefore, there must be something about the state of the US having dominance over the world as opposed to China, that will presumably lead to the instantiation of some of these microstates of n-bX. Presumably, these beneficial microstates of n-bX don't involve a country called "the US" and a country called "China", and arguably lack the property of "dominance". 

So there must be some other thing, state, or property, call it n-bP, whose long term instantiation in the near-present world, is linked to n-bX. So the questions are, what is n-bP, and how is n-bP hypothesised to be linked to "US dominance..", and how is it hypothesised to be instantiated for a very long time, and how is it hypothesised to be linked to n-bX. It's ambiguous on all these questions. 

I think it's fair to say I'd rather the US control the world than China control the world given the different values the two countries hold.

We are not talking about what you would rather, we're talking about what the far future would rather. I get the sense that what you are really defending are ways to incrementally improve the world that are currently under-appreciated. I don't have an issue with that. What I am unconvinced by, is how reference to the lives of beings quadrillions of years into the future, can meaningfully guide our decisions. 

It appears you are saying:

a) We should take actions such that we will enter into a state in the near future that will endure and last a very long time.

b) These near future states that will endure for a long time will be the best states for the beings in the far future.

If so, by design actions now need to lead, relatively quickly, into such an 'attractor state' otherwise these actions are subject to the same 'washing out' criticism that they were designed to avoid. That means that the state that is hypothesised to last for an extremely long time, is a state that is close to the present state. But then we are left with the somewhat surprising claim that a state that we can establish in the near future which lasts an extremely long time is one of the best things we can do for the far future. On the face of it I find the idea very implausible. 

You can argue the states aren't actually that persistent e.g. you don't think superintelligence is that powerful or even realistic in the first place. Or you can argue one isn't clearly better than the other. Or you can argue that there's not much we can do to achieve one state over other.

From the perspective of the linked article unfortunately these points suffer from the same limitation of our inability to make predictions about the effect of our actions on the far future. Therefore, we lack the ability to predict which states would persist into the far future and which wouldn't. And we lack the ability to predict which persistent states would be better than others for the far future.

For example, how exactly does the US winning the race to superintelligence lead to one of the best possible futures for quadrillions of people in the far future? How long is this state expected to last? What will happen once we are no longer in this state? 

There is a related issue of ambiguity about what is included in "the state of things that last an extremely long time". To adapt the terminology from The Case for Strong Longtermism paper, the space of all possible microstates that the world could be in at a single moment of time is S. Call the state that we are in at any given moment in time, subset of S, X. Call the subset of X that persists for an extremely long period of time A. 

The world is continually moving through different states of X and the claim from the 'attractor' argument is that we should move towards versions of A that will positively influence the far future. However, obviously there are other subsets of X that continue to change, i.e. there are microstates of the world that continue to change, otherwise the world is frozen in time. The issue of ambiguity is, what set of microstates makes up A?

One version of A you claim is the US winning the race to superintelligence. When we are in the state of the US having won the race to superintelligence, what exactly is in A? What exactly is claimed to be persisting for a very long time? The US having dominance over the world? Liberty? Democracy? Wellbeing? And whatever it is, how is that influencing the quadrillions of lives in the far future, given that there is still a large subset of X which is changing. 

Saving a life through bed nets just doesn't seem to me to put the world in a better attractor state which makes it vulnerable to washing out. Medical research doesn't either.

My comments in the previous post were not that bed nets and medical research are in fact better focus areas for influencing the far future, but rather in order to say they are not better focus areas for influencing the far future you need to show this. In order to show this you need to be able to predict how focus on these areas impacts the far future. We aren't in a position to predict how focus on these areas effects the far future. Therefore we aren't in a position to say that medical research/bed nets/'insert other' are better or worse focus areas for influencing the far future.