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by ampersandman
2 min read2 answers 6

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Career choiceSuffering-focused ethics
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I am seeking suggestions for a path to pursue my driving mission - reducing as much suffering as possible for all sentient beings.

At 18, I had to drop out of college before completing one year due to the onset of severe depression, anxiety, and ME/CFS. This decade-long battle with intense mental and physical suffering has made me intimately aware of how destructive severe pain truly is. Since then, my internal calling has been to prevent others from experiencing such extremes of torment.

My dream is to work at or run a non-profit organization like OPIS (Organization for the Prevention of Intense Suffering) or CRS (Center for Reducing Suffering), with an expansive view of reducing all forms of suffering. Increasing empathy in the population could be a powerful lever, as more empathetic people may be more motivated to prioritize suffering reduction. Alternatively, focusing on causes of severe suffering like cluster headaches could also create tremendous impact.

Though it is very possible that if I knew the details and demands of running a non-profit, that path would look a lot less attractive. At this point I have almost no idea what it entails.

Unfortunately, while my physical fatigue has improved, I still struggle with significant mental fatigue and brain fog, preventing me from pursuing higher education full-time currently, though this is also slowly improving. I also experience moderate-to-severe social anxiety which can make leadership or public-facing roles challenging.

I have around $18,000 saved that could support a transition. I recently began an electrician apprenticeship, not for passion but as a potential fallback career. However, at 31, I'm uncertain whether completing the 5-year program is prudent if I never intend to remain in that field long-term.

Instead, I'm considering seeking entry-level roles or volunteer positions at non-profits now, whatever my current capabilities allow. This would place me in the right environment while leaving flexibility to eventually pivot into areas like non-profit management, grant writing, scientific research into suffering reduction, or other skillsets I currently lack. 

I live in the United States, and would prefer in-person work as I think it would immerse me into the nonprofit environment more thoroughly.

I'm open to combining part-time work with volunteering to maintain income as I build relevant experience. While my mental energy and social anxiety remain obstacles, I'm actively working to manage these limitations. I'm determined to contribute meaningfully to this crucial mission despite challenges.

While my path is uncertain, I'm committed to finding a way into relieving suffering, even if it means starting with small steps. I welcome any advice for making prudent short-term choices to ultimately maximize my positive impact long-term.

Note: I had help from claude.ai to write the above post.

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rileyharris

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One piece of advice is this: try all of the things that might help with anxiety, depression, and ME/CFS. This was mentioned by @John Salter in another comment, but it doesn't just apply to starting organisations. It is a worthwhile investment to try a range of things that might work on almost any future career path you would pursue. (So long as you don't pay severe costs if they fail). 

These lists are okay as a starting point for anxiety and depression.

ampersandman2
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Thank you for those links. I'll look through, but I'm not super hopeful, as I've trialed dozens of medications, all of which have had zero or negative effect. Not even a glimmer of improvement, apart from amphetamine, although that only worked a couple times before tolerance, and is not a practical treatment. 

As for therapy, I've tried a few times, and maybe it would work if I wasn't so dang tired. But the work required for therapy takes a lot of energy I don't have.

And as for ME/CFS, there aren't many effective treatments. There are a few that work i... (read more)

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rileyharris
I'm sorry to hear treatments generally haven't helped in the past.  I sometimes find it useful to think about these things in the following way. It feels like a lot to sacrifice energy to do therapy when you're already limited in terms of energy. But if it works particularly well, maybe you'll have something like an extra day of energy a week for... well for your whole life. It might be worth doing even if it takes a lot now, and even if the odds of success are low. (Of course, in some cases the odds are so low that it isn't worth it). I don't know much about the specifics here, my own experience has been with anxiety, depression and adhd.

ABishop

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Thank you for your courage! I recommend getting career advice from 80,000hours, but recruiting within EA is notoriously difficult. You should also tell us what you can do and what your capabilities are so that we can give you more detailed advice.

ampersandman1
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I actually applied for some career advice from them a while ago, and they didn't accept my request. For more details on capabilities, check out the reply I just made to John's comment!

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John Salter4
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More information needed:

  • What is your knowledge level?
  • Are there specific areas within the non-profit sector you are particularly interested in?
  • How many hours per week are you able to commit to volunteering or part-time work?
  • Do you have any previous work or volunteer experience, even if not directly related to non-profits?
  • What are your strengths?
  • What are your salary expectations?
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ampersandman4
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Thanks for the questions!

What is your knowledge level?

I've only completed high school. I completed two out of three quarters of the first year at college before I had to drop out, and have taken two more classes since then. All just basic gen ed classes like English and history. Some bio and chem.

Are there specific areas within the non-profit sector you are particularly interested in?

The two organizations I mentioned above, Center for Reducing Suffering, and Organization for the Prevention of Intense Suffering, have the kind of mission I am interested in. Any kind of organization that researches the most effective ways to prevent the worst kinds of suffering, no matter what form or who is experiencing it. 

Maybe specifically things like research into preventing s-risks, treating extremely painful disorders, wild animal suffering, or finding ways to prevent human-caused cruelty/torture.

Also, I'm interested in the field of empathy, because I think if we can find a way to increase the general empathy of the population, and cause more people to care about the suffering of others, this might be one of the greatest levers for preventing suffering in all its forms. An organization that studies the science of compassion and altruism is Stanford's The Center for Compassion And Altruism Research And Education.

  • How many hours per week are you able to commit to volunteering or part-time work?

All combined, my energy would probably allow for about 20-40 hours. With my CFS still not completely gone, the less I have to be on my feet, the longer I can work.

  • Do you have any previous work or volunteer experience, even if not directly related to non-profits?

Most of my work experience is very much non-related: delivery driver, furniture assembly, mover, rideshare. During my short stint at college, I did have a job helping out at a microbiology lab for a few months - getting petri dishes ready, autoclaving, etc.

I volunteered just a couple times at a homeless shelter passing out food.

  • What are your strengths?

I'm fairly intelligent. At least with the more "objective" subjects like math and science. Those always came really easy to me up through high school, and I once placed first in a regional math tournament in middle school. 

"Subjective" stuff like literature, though - please don't ask me to provide the themes and motifs of a novel.

I've taught myself some coding. I like to try to make things easier or solve problems with computer code. It is hard for me to maintain enough attention and organization to complete any polished software projects, but I've played around with Python a lot.

If an appliance or piece of hardware isn't working, I love to open it up and try to find the component that is causing it, and to see if I can fix it. For example, my brother asked me to fix his office phone, and I had fun opening it up and digging around the inside until I found the loose part that just needed to be soldered back on.

Lately, I've been very interested in machine learning, because it takes "make things easier or solve problems with computer code" to a whole new level, making problems magnitudes easier to solve. I especially see a lot of promise in machine learning being used in various ways to find treatments for health disorders. 

A project I've been working on and am very excited about lately is using machine learning models to search through internet comments, find every instance of someone saying a treatment worked for them, extract the treatment and condition names, then organize it for further study. 

If you would like to read my detailed write up of what I'd like to achieve with that project, I wrote something on Medium.

Although the project seemed super straightforward when I started, I am continually running into complex, discouraging roadblocks in the machine learning/software fields. But I think I'm onto something really big with this idea, and I am honestly amazed that it's not a thing yet. And I feel like if no one else is doing it, I have to, because the cure for my lifelong anxiety might be hidden in a Reddit comment that got buried ten years ago and forgotten.

Another strength is that I'm kind. It almost physically hurts me to see people/animals in pain, and I am very motivated to figure out how to relieve their suffering as quickly as possible. 

I'll throw in some weaknesses: anything social. Teamwork, leadership, presentations. My social anxiety is ever present and very bad. 

Writing essays - Due to brain fog, it is often hard to be creative and think of things to write about.

And of course the ME/CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome) in general is a huge weakness and greatly limits my mental and physical stamina in any task. It is very hard for me to gauge how much work I can do, and I often overestimate how much I can do, then have to quit. I am hopeful that it will continue to improve to where I have normal energy, but for now, that is something I have to be very mindful of. 

An example of an ideal scenario in my mind would be: a non-profit hires me for ten hours a week initially, doing super easy work on-site (remote work feels like I'd be missing a large chunk of the learning experience). Tasks like filing papers or making routine calls. I would be in constant communication with the employer, and if and whenever we felt I could take on more work without overexerting myself, I would cautiously take on more and more responsibility and hours, gaining experience and insight all along the way.

  • What are your salary expectations?

I would of course like as much money as possible, but that's mostly because I want to be as secure as possible for retirement. But my lifestyle currently is very frugal. I pinch pennies every chance I can, buying cheap food, driving my paid off Prius as efficiently as possible (while trying to avoid annoying the people behind me!), and I've got low rent as I'm renting a room in my brother's house. Also, not much social life to spend money on, what with the social anxiety.

So while I'd eventually like a position with a higher salary, like at least >$70,000, I think for now I would be fine on $30,000, maybe less, if I thought it was leading somewhere.

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John Salter7
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I don't know much about being hired by organisations, but I know a lot about starting them.

This answer assumes that you're very ambitious, and want to do something big and world-changing. Your odds are much better if your aims are more modest. It's also just my opinion as a guy whose started a few organisations. I've been wrong before, and I will be wrong again.
----
I'm going to tell you some negative stuff, and then suggest a path to getting what you want anyway.

On paper, you aren't suitable to start a charity. Most charities fail (+80%). On the balance of the evidence presented, it's more likely you'd be among the 80%:

  • Being a charity founder usually takes a heroic amount of work over a decade, maybe 60Hpw on average for ~48 weeks per year for ~5-10 years. This will be hard to do with ME.
  • Social anxiety is debilitating to a startup founder because it involves being rejected 19 times for every one time someone says yes. You'll have to manage teams, fire under-perfomers, explain to funders why your plan fails and why they should fund you again anyway. A great founder will nonetheless make mistakes that will cost people their jobs, waste months of their time, hurt their collaborators and beneficiaries
  • Given the lack of relevant experience, it's going to take you longer to get started. You lack the resumé you'd need to get hired or get funding to do the work you're interested in in EA right now. 

The good news is that most successful founders seemed to have some crippling flaws that'd make them a bad fit. They find a way around it. It's possible that you could to:

  • You could find people to supplement your lack of energy if you can successfully outsource or delegate the more draining parts of the work
  • Social anxiety is treatable, even curable, given sufficient effort (2Hs weekly for ~12 weeks). 
    • Free treatments exist for EAs. Rethink Wellbeing offers free counselling for Effective Altruists, in a group setting. I would be surprised if they didn't offer bespoke support for social anxiety. Overcome, my charity, also offers it but one-to-one (caveat: it's not as bespoke to EAs).

If you can get a project off the ground and make good progress people will stop giving a shit about your lack of qualifications. I'd suggest working on the project linked on your medium article, create a Minimum Viable Product, and writing up the results on the forum or wherever your most likely collaborators / funders hang out.

The above is likely quite helpful for getting a relevant job too. Field-relevant accomplishments will help you get an interview. Being less socially anxious will help you come across better. Having strong systems of outsourcing / delegation would make it more credible to employers that your ME isn't going to undermine your performance.

I hope this is helpful.

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ampersandman2
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Thank you for sharing your insights. 

So my big ambitions mostly hinge on my hope that my health conditions go into remission. I continue to improve after removing the medication I mentioned, and I'm pretty sure I'll eventually get to where I was before it. 

Although where I was before was still not well enough to undertake a full running of a non-profit. Constant generalized anxiety, mild brain fog, moderate social anxiety. As for that, I'm cautiously optimistic that a ketogenic diet or carnivore diet will take me all the way to "normal". I've spent a lot of time searching the web for things like "keto cured my social anxiety" or "keto cured my brain fog" and I've seen a heck of a lot of people say they are pretty much fixed of chronic, treatment-resistant problems, after simply cutting out carbs.

I'm not so confident that "Social anxiety is treatable, even curable" with behavioral treatments for everyone. For me, it feels very tied to my ME/CFS, which is increasingly being accepted to not at all be amenable to psychological treatments. No behavioral change has ever changed my anxiety in the slightest. Not talk therapy, not exposure therapy, not meditation. Whenever the ME is worse, say, during a crash from overexertion, the social anxiety, and generalized anxiety are also worse. 

I'd compare it to someone who is in severe withdrawal from opiates, going through horrible anxiety. Even if maybe some behavioral technique could ease it a little bit, I don't think any practice, or any amount of effort, apart from direct alteration of brain chemicals, such as through drugs, will cure that person's anxiety for the time they are in withdrawal. 

Similar to the plea of the ME/CFS community to the medical community to stop believing it is a psychological disorder that can be treated by CBT, I think my social anxiety and anxiety fit into the same category. Not saying everyone's does, and I'm sure lots of people do get helped. But for me, I think it's more like the guy withdrawing from opiates and unrelated to behavior/thought.

I would not be opposed to trying the programs you offered if I had more energy, but given my very low expectation of them working for me, it's not worth the effort while I'm this fatigued.

Overcome is very cool, and thank you for making that. One thing I would suggest is put specific details on the website. I was searching for where the science behind the program was, and couldn't find anything. I'd recommend adding what the credentials of the people training others in the techniques are, what the exact practices are, and link to research papers showing those practices work. 

But anyway, thank you for your feedback, I'll keep it in mind!

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GreyKoala2
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I would try to complete some qualification. I also have had depression and I have found that people don't want people who don't have a qualification or are taking a break from Uni even if you have done well at Uni or treat you differently if doing a reduced courseload. I also want to help people in a particular field re academic interest but there isn't a way to make connections who are similar to me plus interested in the particular field.


Maybe you could try to organise some sort of group first.

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rileyharris2
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I just want to add that even if people treat you different, ultimately it's a line on your CV that says "completed this degree, in this year". I don't think it makes a material difference to your opportunities at the point of completion if it took you much longer to complete.

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